This time the girls get to ask the guy out and plan the date and get double points. The whole activity is based on the honor system. Everyone keeps track of their participation points, and the winners in four categories will get a dinner for two and a pair of movie passes, according to the flyer. Another person said he understood Workman-Tulley's concerns, but could also see the intent of the activity as being something to get the guys to ask out more women.
The picture of the flyer was posted on Imgur by former Mormon John Dehlin , who was excommunicated from the faith in and is the founder of Mormon Stories Podcast. There are prizes for men and women, but only men get points for asking women out. Everybody in this ward is going to hate each other by the time this is over! Trailer tractor crashes into restaurant near Price, 3 people injured. California authorities need help identifying toddler whose remains were found in bag.
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Police still seek more suspects in Fashion Place Mall shooting. We ask our girls to make a list of traits they want in a future husband, and then we turn that around on them. I have a family member who concluded, following her temple ordinances, that her whole purpose in life was to exist for her husband. I believe we need to do a better job teaching our girls to go after what THEY want, not what they think some future man will want. And I think the hyper-focus on marriage among teenagers needs to end. There are not a lot of Mormon men to date.go
LDS Dating Culture – By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog
At BYU, my singles wards usually had approximately women, with 40 men. Once you get out into the real world, the numbers are worse — one normal week in my singles ward in a large East Coast city there were 12 men, and 60 women. This numbers game gives the men all the power — you can be pretty darn picky if there are literally 5 women for every 1 man. This also sets women into two categories: Fear of having sex trumps fear of never marrying. I am a single celibate woman in my 30s. He may have been a really cool guy. But dating is about sex.
So like my friend on tinder, they make all decisions about the future of the relationship before a conversation has happened. LT, I would echo both your points. The women to men ratios are not good in the church in general. Hinckley , there are even fewer options for a well educated woman with a good career. Even when I do meet a man who might be a good fit, he usually has 10 to 20 women to choose from. But I am so much happier now that I have. I feel like I can finally be myself and not worry about all that other stuff. I can just be friends with guys.
If something more ever develops more organically, great. But if not, I feel content with who I am. I have friends across the US at various ages, though no older than 35 who are divorced and dating, but the only guys interested in them are guys who are trying to get into their pants. Are there women out there making these propositions viable? I also refused to participate in a dating system that devalued me in that way. Those types of guys only cared about plugging in a woman to their life. In my experience, about half the men at BYU felt that if they were worthy, they could have their pick of the LDS women, and they were entitled to choose from among us.
That attitude was very different from the non-LDS men I dated who felt entitled to have sex with anyone after three dates, if not sooner. Basically, neither alternative was palatable, so I fully understand where these singles are coming from. Fortunately, I found that not all men were like that, including my husband.
The older you get, the worse the odds are. A lot of younger guys seem amazed that I went on dates with something different girls during my dating years. That was maybe 10 different girls a year on average, with a couple of girlfriends thrown into the mix. I saw dates as a step or two before that point — a time to find out whether we were interested in each other at all. How do we nudge the LDS dating culture toward taking the concept of dating seriously, but not being too serious about the dates themselves?
Combine that with the heavy LDS marriage-is-forever emphasis noted by others, and choosing, even from a pool of wonderful women, becomes a recipe for future discontent. I think it would largely be the same if there were vastly more women than men in the LDS dating pool, except of course that women have their biological clock forcing them to choose earlier than men do. Two of my female friends were living in Manhattan about 13 years ago when single women in their stake were told at stake conference that they should be open to the idea of dating and marrying good men who were not Mormons, if they felt prompted to do so.
Devout non-LDS Christian men living in Utah have been heard to say that they wish the LDS women would date them—they like their beauty and maturity and values and consequent lack of venereal diseases —but they will only date Mormon men, however scarce. Or maybe it would drive more of them into the virtual arms of virtual women. What a longwinded and cranky comment. Please note my age see first sentence , and forgive. The non-LDS dating pool is appealing for a number of reasons and would offer more options and better women-men ratios.
The problem is the vast majority of non-LDS men are not interested once they know about the no-sex-before-marriage rule. They might be willing to wait a while, but not that long. And, of course, the elephant in the sealing room: Would that attitude change as time passed, and they moved into that lates timeframe where a large family becomes, frankly, less likely? I hold out hope. Mormons are good at the speed romance. Especially us desperate ones. I should say, Mormons are good at the speed romance once we have decided what we want—probably precisely because of the abstinence thing.
I have three close friends who married non-LDS men who understood going into the dating relationship that that would be a factor, and were smitten enough to wait it out. Such anecdotes are not uncommon in my set. And according to an article my brother sent me, abstinence and virginity are becoming somewhat trendy in the broader culture mainly among younger singles—not my cohort, alas.
The midsingles ward I attend has a pretty even ratio of men to women. If I call up a woman I like in the ward who I am not interested in dating, she probably will get the wrong idea about my motives and that stirs up drama. In my last ward, there were a lot of very high caliber women who were looking to be equally yoked. Eventually those men got married off and new guys replaced them, but many of the women were in a perpetual cycle of aiming too high considering the market. At the end of the day, the best odds to get married may be in Utah where a numbers game is feasible.
This post and this discussion has sealed it for me. I will no longer place my future happiness in the hands of impotent men.
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Or just adjust the numbers. I say that if you live in an area with many more of one gender than the other, then the counsel could be to the minority group: Emphasis on the prayerfully. It really complicates an already complicated and painful situation. I have yet to go on a date with anyone, even though I would love to date and get re-married. One of the problems is that I really have no good way to meet and naturally make friends with single men. I have kids and attend a family ward, so I rarely hang out with other singles.
No one seems to want to just go on a casual date or have a chat to get to know anyone else, which is what I naively assumed the point of a dating site was. I spent most of my marriage with an inactive husband and that was a major conflict for us, so dating a non-member or ex-Mormon is not an appealing prospect for me. From my limited experience with single men my age mid-late 30s , I think a lot of them have very different views of marriage from me.
I think this comes, in part, from the pressure in the church culture to marry or be incomplete, inconsequential, infantile or worse.
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Overall, and not intentionally, the single culture is a very subtle but hostile environment. Though most are warranted, defensive assumptions fly between genders and make the matching process near impossible and extremely painful. I became acquainted with my future mother-in-law a few months before I had occasion to meet her daughter.
Many married people know singles they care about and would like to line up with someone, and a connection through a married person is generally better than one through another single. Plus there are more possible connections. The single referrer has ruled out for herself one half of the pair she is introducing but thinks he might be OK for her friend. No potential mates, no potential dates, very few friendships of even the most superficial kind. We also have a number of 70s GAs who live in the ward for a year or two and then move on to new assignments.
A month or so ago, a 70 who was leaving spoke in farewell. Kind of okay, but generally I avoided it. Not a single person I know does it. My peers in and outside the church tend to see it like this: The YW in our ward were scandalized last year when my daughter asked out a non-member friend to the high school homecoming dance. Never been kissed; had one boyfriend for one month who then told me we were never actually dating.
I go on a couple dates a year, usually because I ask. When I lived in Arizona, there were lots of guys, but I hated all the activities, and yes, all dates were very interview-like. Now I live in Las Vegas, where there are very very very few single people, particularly men. Almost all the guys in my ward are still in college and living at home, and all of them get a deer-in-the-headlights look when I talk to them, even extremely casually. The emphasis on marriage has been extremely damaging to my testimony and place in the church.
My entire church experience is colored by my singleness. Dating culture is pretty bad, but my life is pretty happy. When I was 25 and single, I was called as a cub scout den leader. When I went to the scout roundtable, the woman training new cub scout leaders was my future mother-in-law, who lived eight miles away in another ward.
I also found that scout outings can make good dates. Would you like to come? Ardis, I loved your comment. As a 30 year old single man, it is hard on this side of the gender divide too. I rarely get more than a 1st date. I appreciate the candid comments. I am married, live in the suburbs of an eastern city, and have kids. I also have siblings who are single past 30, and I have teens growing up and I have a great deal of concern about the current climate of dating. I had mostly male non LDS but Christian friends in college.
I had 2 different non ,LDS boyfriends; the first situation was impulsive and not good. The second was careful, calculated, and intentional. But here is where it gets very complicated. Both of them were very good friends of mine first. I got to know them. My experiences with regular dating were bad. One ysa dance was it. So I have told my daughters to be open to friendship.
Swiping for salvation: Why Mormon singles put their faith in a dating app
But also be ready to support themselves. I told them it is fine to take initiative and be the one asking out. I am bothered by some aspects of what is considered chivalry—my kids are growing up with equal partnership having been modeled. It is OK to be smart and academic.
It is OK to have goals. I just hope someone out there is raising their sons to expect equal partnership. I like the idea that we can encourage faithful, single adults to date and marry outside of the faith. Until I met my husband I dated both mormon and non-mormons. The mormon men I dated generally did not stack up to the non-mormon men in terms of sociability, politeness, goals, and work ethic my husband is mormon and the grand exception to this rule. I watched a dear friend give up on the kind, gentlemanly non-mormon man who adored her to cater to a mormon man who did not value her and was not her equal in terms of education or motivation.
Eventually she married her non-mormon friend and as far as I know is very happy as a result. We should be encouraging every route to a happy, healthy, functional marriage, even if it is not in the temple in this lifetime. Why is the scene unbalanced? Are men less culturally or genetically predisposed toward mormonism than women?
After transitioning to unorthodox mormon beliefs I no longer desired to date or marry a TBM woman. Lacking social ties in my current ward, I simply stopped going to church altogether. Physical affection is usually a clear sign that someone is interested, one that even the most socially awkward among us can read. After four dates with a woman I really liked, I gave up because she pulled away every time I held her hand and practically sprinted to the door at the end of the night.
As a 35 year old single woman I can relate to just about everything here. I attended YSA wards for over six years without any dates, or anything similar in nature. I changed to a family ward when I moved into my own house and really enjoyed the time there. I felt included and valued. At 32 I dived into online dating and found myself a nice non-Mormon boyfriend. One thing that has really helped was the now-defunct eHarmony advice forums.
BYU Young Single Adult ward dating activity called 'worst idea ever'
I never heard this kind of useful dating talk from friends, family or other acquaintances. I work and live in lily white, bourgeois Draper. Interesting post and comments. I joke that 12 years of singles wards is what drove me out of the Church. Honestly, though, although there were a myriad of factors that contributed to my deconversion and my eventual leaving, being single was a huge one.
I echo some of the comments above: For myself, the older I got, the more I fell into absolute despair. But I am looking forward to having options again and to being able to relate to men as friends as well as lovers. And, also, to not being indentified as a spinster at My life no longer feels like a sad Victorian novel. Most of my dating was at BYU, and most of my male friends encountered the same problems dating there as I did.
The most common problem we encountered was that women acted like a date was a marriage proposal and would freak out, especially if you asked her out on a second date. I was lucky to have a lot of female friends throughout my college career, many of whom I had no interest in dating. Friends elsewhere outside of Utah found that if you tried casual dating within your singles ward, you became known as a player. The date-only-to-marry thing is strong at BYU, from my experience, and seems to be elsewhere in the Mormon world as well.
I find that dates with non-Mormons are usually far more entertaining these days and I can build far more normal relationships since Mormon women seem to view me only in terms of a prospective husband or dismissed as a non-prospect. I often hear of women making the same type of complaint, so it really applies to both sides of the dating game. JustAnotherExMo, I fear what you say. We have single men and women, sprinting into their 40s who feel like the church essentially wishes they would disappear. Was it extremely hands off? Or just too defined and bright-line? I guess someone up the line mentioned marrying the daughter of a sister he worked with in Cub Scouts when he left the YSA ward, but anyone else?
I am curious because, of course, there are many cultures where that is the primary way women and men meet each other.
Is it just too outre in our larger American culture? Do the problems described here overwhelm any relationships which occur through personal introductions? A few commentators have mentioned cases of finding non-LDS spouses. While I congratulate them on their good fortune, my observation is that the overwhelming and universal expectation for, and practice of, pre-marital sex in our current society is a major impediment to that solution for anyone who wants to adhere to LDS teachings on that subject.
As an 18 year old who has been struggling with all aspects of Mormon culture, this terrifies me. I hoped it was only my stake, and then when I started college, I hoped it was just Utah and Arizona that were this bad. I never even considered BYU because I knew that I would either have to be a perfect Molly Mormon or melt under the judgmental stares of all my classmates and become a complete social outcast. For some reason, I kind of thought it was just a guideline to help horny teenagers keep it in their pants, to be discarded once we were old enough to control ourselves and think rationally again.
I think boys overlooked me because there were other girls trying very hard to model themselves into perfect Molly Mormons, meanwhile I was heaven forbid asking questions in class and using sarcasm on a regular basis. A hive-mind that is quick to condemn. People that fear an all-powerful God. And the key word in that sentence is fear. History class has taught me that actions done out of fear are never good. Lest we glorify how committed or open the non-LDS community is to establishing platonic relationships with the opposite sex, I think it needs to be said that this is not my experience at all, as a middle aged single.
Where LDS folks are single minded toward marriage, my experience of middle aged single men is that they are single minded toward casual sexual relationships. Not interested in friendship. I have even been told I must be suffering from a mental illness for wanting a celibate dating relationship. Unfortunately, I was right. And so when that experiment failed, I would suggest friendship only and there was usually polite consent and then complete disappearance.
On the other hand, it is true that the singles scene in the LDS community is marriage-or-bust, particularly among the middle aged. It would make your hair curl if I told you the stories of the men I have gone on dates with who immediately wanted to get married. When I demurred and in one case said I thought there was a potential but not yet , they dropped me. She is asking for a committed relationship. After failing to do so, he shrugged and said he would have to go to the other woman, then. And so he did. They were engaged within a few days. The story I just told, with only a few details changed, has happened at least 7 times in my life.
So count me among those that have given up on it. On love, dating, marriage, and, sadly, friendships with single men. I figure that maybe someday there will be a man show up on my doorstop with a bow around his neck. Ben S, it was a strange combination of all three.
He pushed boundaries that even as an unobservant nonbeliever, seemed to be going too fast. Like going to make out in the bedroom on the first date. My law partner met his second wife on a fix-up when his neighbors suggested he take their daughter out on a date. If finding someone you love and are compatible with is the metric for success, then this one counts as a winner. Kevin Barney, you nailed it. I no longer do fix-ups for that reason.
If I could go back in time, I would worry less about trying to impress my dates and boyfriends by being interested in all of their interests and not demanding much from them. Because it turns out that I have needs and interests of my own. The combination of the law of chastity, incredibly unrealistic expectations and kind of IMO harmful pursuit of perfection both in ourselves and in our potential partner makes things very tough. I have been single and LDS twice; once in my 20s and once in my 40s and I have to say, at both ages, I ran into the same problems.
The abject fear of having sex really can negatively impact a relationship. So can the sort of strange, almost sacred or cultish idealism that we seem to have regarding marital partners. I have been divorced for 43 years, so am likely the oldest person commenting here. I went to singles wards in my 30s and early 40s and met a lot of guys, dated some and made friends with others—yes, I had male friends with whom I was not the east bit romantically interested.
And they were good friendships. I am happily single. I would rather wait until the next life to find my eternal companion than lower my standards just to be married. I do agree with a lot of the comments about people not wanting to date casually. Aubrey, I think this is a symptom of YSA culture, actually.
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